Pages: 1 2 [3]
Author Topic: ME7.1 / Standalone parallel ECU  (Read 8244 times)
BlackT
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +79/-40
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425



« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2023, 03:40:31 PM »

Just a remainder that torsen centre diff car becomes 1 wheel drive when you lose 1 corner traction completely when you dont have functioning ABS unit. So it will be AWD system only when all wheels have same traction.
Bullshit, you have zero knowlage how torsen work. And you never drive one on the limit
Logged
IamwhoIam
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +52/-115
Online Online

Posts: 1070


« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2023, 05:36:01 AM »

Bullshit, you have zero knowlage how torsen work. And you never drive one on the limit

Huh? Ever broke a driveshaft in a torsen car? I have LOL
Logged

I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-481
Offline Offline

Posts: 6037


« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2023, 09:57:04 AM »

Bullshit, you have zero knowlage how torsen work. And you never drive one on the limit
I think back to school with you.

Take a driveshaft (or break one) in any Torsen car and it's not going anywhere.
Only exception is the newer cars where you can break a rear drive shaft if there's a sport diff in the rear, as that's a blocking diff.

But front driveshaft or any driveshaft in a car without a sport diff and you're not going to go ANYWHERE.
Torsen multiplies torque. 100x0 is still 0.
The whole AWD after traction loss is done by using EDL in the ESP unit and grabbing the wheel that is slipping with the brake to distribute torque to other wheels. On newer cars it's super advanced too with rotor and brake pad surface temperature modelled.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Blazius
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +89/-40
Offline Offline

Posts: 1282



« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2023, 03:55:46 PM »

Bullshit, you have zero knowlage how torsen work. And you never drive one on the limit

Like others said, Torsen is torque biasing system (and in these gens of cars specially) which means if one of the wheels has 0 traction the other will have 0 too, and similar with front to back diff. This is why ABS and EDL is used to provide artifical torque so to say to the other side.

This is where most people misunderstand Torsen in these cars, they never lock without an actual locking differential.

as for OP you should probably mention the exact build of this car, Its supposed to be supercharged not turbo, (which IMO is a waste of time) with a 3.0T SC. The only way this will ever run anywhere near right is with stock ECU properly done like we discussed.
Logged
BlackT
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +79/-40
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425



« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2023, 04:54:46 PM »

I think back to school with you.

Take a driveshaft (or break one) in any Torsen car and it's not going anywhere.
Only exception is the newer cars where you can break a rear drive shaft if there's a sport diff in the rear, as that's a blocking diff.

But front driveshaft or any driveshaft in a car without a sport diff and you're not going to go ANYWHERE.
Torsen multiplies torque. 100x0 is still 0.
The whole AWD after traction loss is done by using EDL in the ESP unit and grabbing the wheel that is slipping with the brake to distribute torque to other wheels. On newer cars it's super advanced too with rotor and brake pad surface temperature modelled.
I can't belive you never dissamble or hold in hand torsen diff? I refuse to belive in that.

Yes in condition where one wheel have zero or  little above zero traction, (pure ice or wheel in air) you will have all torqure on that wheel.
But on road when car is move that is close to imposible scenario. Washers in torsen diff will never let torque to go in front or rear wheel 100%.  Bias is alwasy around 70:30%

Broken driveshaft have nothing comon how torsen work. Beacuse as I sad, when all wheels are spining there is load on tosren washers and that change game a lot.

But I feel dump that I need to explain that to you.

If all teory you guy say now is true, that will mean that quattro in all B4, C4,D2 is pure bull shit, that quattro without EDL/ESP is nonsense. But we all know that is not true.

Explain to me how old quattro have 1.7 sec 60 ft at 1/4 mile?

If you have right, that will mean at start one wheel will spin like car is FWD or RWD, try it you will see that is imposible!!!

I drive quattro for more than 10 years, 3 different cars without ABS, EDL, ESP or rear diff lock.
From drag to snow, back again  to track and normal road. And I feel dump to even discuse about this on this audi/WV forum
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-481
Offline Offline

Posts: 6037


« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2023, 05:38:47 PM »

I can't belive you never dissamble or hold in hand torsen diff? I refuse to belive in that.

Yes in condition where one wheel have zero or  little above zero traction, (pure ice or wheel in air) you will have all torqure on that wheel.
But on road when car is move that is close to imposible scenario. Washers in torsen diff will never let torque to go in front or rear wheel 100%.  Bias is alwasy around 70:30%

Broken driveshaft have nothing comon how torsen work. Beacuse as I sad, when all wheels are spining there is load on tosren washers and that change game a lot.
It has everything in common. If there is zero traction at one wheel, the one wheel will spin, and others will stand still. It's simple mathematics. The torsen differential is not capable of locking up like a LSD.
Jack up one corner of the car and turn the EDL off, the car can't move off the jack.
Quote
Washers in torsen diff will never let torque to go in front or rear wheel 100%.  Bias is alwasy around 70:30%
This is complete horseshit. Any situation where one wheel is lifted or driveshaft broken the car isn't going anywhere.

Quote
But I feel dump that I need to explain that to you.

If all teory you guy say now is true, that will mean that quattro in all B4, C4,D2 is pure bull shit, that quattro without EDL/ESP is nonsense. But we all know that is not true.
C4 and D2 already had EDL... And yes, the Audi Torsen based 4WD is completely useless offroad. That is why the Q7 did not use it, and instead a fully locking transfer case was developed.
Quote
Explain to me how old quattro have 1.7 sec 60 ft at 1/4 mile?
If you have right, that will mean at start one wheel will spin like car is FWD or RWD, try it you will see that is imposible!!!
Because there is some traction to that wheel. As soon as it spins, the total power transmitted to the ground becomes less due to that wheel spinning and it regains traction, because basically the system balancing itself. The wheel can not stay lifted. But the car accelerates much faster with EDL braking that wheel or a front LSD. All the fast drag cars used welded center diffs exactly for this reason back in the day. The 60ft time was 0.3-0.4s better with a welded diff.
The acceleration is much better with EDL. I even did some tests a long time ago with 2 wheels on ice and 2 wheels on tarmac. The difference in acceleration with EDL on was more than 2x.
Quote
I drive quattro for more than 10 years, 3 different cars without ABS, EDL, ESP or rear diff lock.
From drag to snow, back again  to track and normal road. And I feel dump to even discuse about this on this audi/WV forum
You drive it for 10 years and you lack elementary knowledge about how the system works.
I guess it just goes to show time and time again, that you can take something apart and put it back together without having any clue how it works. Very true of engines as well - bolting it together does not make you a tuner or understand how any of the processes work inside.

But hey, keep digging an even bigger hole for yourself.

You really never broke a driveshaft on a quattro car? You haven't done shit in your life then lol. I probably broke a driveshaft before you had a license.
Btw the really old Audi cars did not use Torsen based 4wd. They had a manually locking diff in the center. Torsen was introduced in the late 80s.
And EDL was found on all D2 and also on A6/S6 C4. On all the non-EDL cars to get them unstuck in deep snow, so one wheel isn't just free spinning on front, it was needed to apply the brake and gas at same time, then you'd get some traction to the other wheels. Was still needed on the late C4 cars if you got really stuck because the EDL was pretty anemic on them.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 06:09:08 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
BlackT
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +79/-40
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425



« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2023, 10:03:57 PM »

But we don't talk about same conditions, whole time you talk about situation with zero traction(broken drive shaft/wheel in air)
I talk about real conditions on road, where one wheel will have less traction than others. Again I say less, not zero traction.
That is huge differenece, and I talk about snow or really slipery road on rain day.
I have driven tru all conditions with quattro, all types of snow,tarmac,mud and so on. Even on full slick tyres on rain at rear and regular tyres at front, even in that situation I didn't experience that one wheel is only spining. Most of torqe was transvered to real wheels, but car was never have behavier like it is RWD.

Beacuse as long as all wheels are turning(car is moving) there is close to imposible to transfer all power to one wheel. So I talk when you are driving, not when car is stuck in mud/snow or driving off road when one wheel will be lifted in air.

Yes driving it 10 years and dissasembling parts does not make me me that I know how tings works... but I tell you I don't talk about thing I have read on internet, but real sfuff from my experience and studying how all that works.

I was even driving on summer tyres in snow, still all wheels are spining.

If you don't belive me, make a test. Take you quattro to road with conditions of realy realy bad traction. Pull handbrake and drive car, sooner or later torsen will heat up and fail. That is proof it wants to transfer torque to real wheels.
Same will happen if car is in air and you pull handbrake, but beacuse is no traction, there is no torque transfer. As you say 100x0=0. But I repeat again zero traction and bad traction are not same tings. And make huge difference to torsen.

I have experince many times when ESP save my ass and driving on snow without EDL make car 30-40% worse to plow tru snow. But on 99% conditions where normal people drive will never experice one wheel spinning. That is my point

Just a remainder that torsen centre diff car becomes 1 wheel drive when you lose 1 corner traction completely when you dont have functioning ABS unit. So it will be AWD system only when all wheels have same traction.
I apology, I didn't express myself clearly first time, this is true, but no way that will ever ever happen(that you will lose in corner completly traction to one wheel) that is why I said it is bullshit, sorry
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 10:09:53 PM by BlackT » Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-481
Offline Offline

Posts: 6037


« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2023, 01:31:45 AM »

But we don't talk about same conditions, whole time you talk about situation with zero traction(broken drive shaft/wheel in air)
This happens every time on launch. Without EDL or welded center diff the launch is shit on the torsen based system.
It also happens in hard turning on both gravel and tarmac. There without EDL you have insane understeer because the inner front wheel starts lifting and you have no traction.

Quote
I talk about real conditions on road, where one wheel will have less traction than others. Again I say less, not zero traction.
That is huge differenece, and I talk about snow or really slipery road on rain day.
No, you talk about an ideal road and driving in a straight line.

Quote
If you don't belive me, make a test. Take you quattro to road with conditions of realy realy bad traction. Pull handbrake and drive car, sooner or later torsen will heat up and fail. That is proof it wants to transfer torque to real wheels.
And again proof that you don't understand what you're on about. If you block a wheel then all the torque tries to go there. This is normal.
If you lift a wheel up and spin it, nothing is going to happen to the diff anytime soon.
Quote
But on 99% conditions where normal people drive will never experice one wheel spinning.
In this case you can drive FWD. The limitations experienced are:
1. During hard cornering
2. Offroad
3. During hard launch.
4. Stuck in snow.

Quote
but no way that will ever ever happen(that you will lose in corner completly traction to one wheel)
Happens ALL the time. Maybe if you drive like grandma on tarmac you don't have the problem, but then you also don't need AWD.

Also, no torsen based quattro can do this even with EDL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hwz_qJKW0Q

Torsen based quattro AWD is shit without EDL or LSD in front and rear. That's why all the newer fast cars have a sport diff in the back, a different torque bias and very aggressive EDL.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2023, 01:34:09 AM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
eedzt
Newbie
*

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2023, 02:42:44 PM »

Bullshit, you have zero knowlage how torsen work. And you never drive one on the limit

I have quite good understanding of the limits of this generation t2 torsen without rear sport differential as I own b6 bex quattro  Grin (t3 centre diff systems work all the same, only difference is how sophisticated is the ABS unit software to compensate 3 open differentials). I have tested the system limits with deep snow on road and offroad in abandonned ski center. It is very good until you get stuck from bottom, snap axle or the EDL or ABS stops functioning, then you get immediately stuck when the speed is lost. Also in gravel it is almost useless if the EDL does not work in lower speeds, it will allways disengage EDL operation when your speed exceedes 80 km/h. Also in winter it is very easy to get to a situation where one corner has 0 traction even on plowed roads. Worst case scenario is when there have not rained in a while and you get dry spots where the traffic normally goes and if you have to some reason move bit side from the dry spot so the other side is on the snow/ice and other in dry and you have to stop in example to traffic lights and EDL is not working you are stuck there for a good. You can even leave it in gear and the engine wont stall even on idle and only one wheel is spinning  Grin did not find the good example video of this from youtube, because I dont remember the title. It was grey c5 and dash was lit like christmas tree  Grin luckily I have allways had working car and I have no brag about the system. It is great system for permanent AWD road car and the torque biasing is instant and infinite between the biasing ratio. The t2 starts from 50:50 split and the more tail happy t3 60:40 and this is the static split when all 4 corners have same traction.
Logged
86turbodsl
Newbie
*

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2023, 02:58:52 PM »

as for OP you should probably mention the exact build of this car, Its supposed to be supercharged not turbo, (which IMO is a waste of time) with a 3.0T SC. The only way this will ever run anywhere near right is with stock ECU properly done like we discussed.

I believe i said "boosted" in the original post. That encompasses either type of boost device.   the method of boost control is the issue i think. 
I just this minute got done with the 2.5" exhaust all the way to the rear.  Due to packaging in this platform, i believe i want to go supercharged.  I have zero issues with getting the hardware done.  I'm a powertrain engineer.  I've done this before for OEMs. Specifically engineering full supercharger packages for a V-engine that didn't have one before.   What i haven't done, is calibration of ME7.1.1 ecus.  That's why i'm here.
Logged
86turbodsl
Newbie
*

Karma: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2023, 03:04:10 PM »

I have quite good understanding of the limits of this generation t2 torsen without rear sport differential as I own b6 bex quattro  Grin (t3 centre diff systems work all the same, only difference is how sophisticated is the ABS unit software to compensate 3 open differentials). I have tested the system limits with deep snow on road and offroad in abandonned ski center. It is very good until you get stuck from bottom, snap axle or the EDL or ABS stops functioning, then you get immediately stuck when the speed is lost.

I can confirm this behavior.  I have been high-centered in the B6, in snow, it stopped moving.  I had to pull the car out of the snow to dry ground to get it to move again.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.025 seconds with 17 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0s, 0q)