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Author Topic: Bosch EV14 Injector Migration  (Read 366731 times)
julex
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« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2012, 12:10:11 PM »

The 0.7ms from Ev14 data sheet is only an FYI.

It doesn't mean you have to squirt at a minimum of 0.7ms all the time. Taken literally, it means: "don't use this size injector in the application where requested pulse width frequently falls under this threshold as you will get mixture for loads requiring pulse widths below this value".

TEMIN should only be used to force minimum pulse width on an on injector that can't operate reliably below a certain threshold. If you have some monstrous injectors like 2000cc that can't properly operate at say 0.50ms that might be required for proper idle but do ok at 0.70ms, then you TEMIN 0.70 and run pig rich a idle but at least you do run instead of car coughing and sputtering all over.

Have a look at what Ev14 run at a warm engine idle (AC and headlights off) to give you an idea what the real life minimum pulse width these will run at. Subtract about 10-20% for light decel situation (just before VA) and that's the value. Now, if it is 0.60ms, then you might have inconsistent mixture but the cool thing about very low loads (slightly below idle) is that they disable closed loop so who cares. So long the car idles allright with solid closed loop, you're good to go. Just zero out TEMIN if it really bothers you so much.

Having said that I run 1000cc modified EV14 on my car and I idle at stock idle just fine... My pulsewidths are 0.68 - 0.70 at idle, right at the threshold of ev14 repeatability.

Interestingly enough the min pulsewidth is also susceptible to fuel rail pressures. I don't know it is lower and raises with the rail pressure though....
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nyet
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« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2012, 12:26:18 PM »

TEMIN should only be used to force minimum pulse width on an on injector that can't operate reliably below a certain threshold. If you have some monstrous injectors like 2000cc that can't properly operate at say 0.50ms that might be required for proper idle but do ok at 0.70ms, then you TEMIN 0.70 and run pig rich a idle but at least you do run instead of car coughing and sputtering all over.

That was how I interpreted this thread so far... question is, if you hit the TEMIN threshold and run pig rich at idle, what happens to idle trims?
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julex
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« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2012, 12:33:53 PM »

Nothing since ECU recognizes that TEMIN is used and flips b_lrs1 and b_lrs2 bits to disable closed loop and associated stuff, including trim adaptation.
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nyet
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« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2012, 12:44:25 PM »

Really, well I think someone is misunderstanding the FR, and is about ready to have a cat fight over it.
I am not going to bother to get drawn into such crap. Plain and simple.

Yeah sorry, people are opinionated bastards. If I don't like the way someone is talking to me, I am not going to give them anything.
You should know me better by now than to post crap which amounts to "you don't want to share because you don't know anything".

I think I've contributed plenty to this resource to show otherwise.

Shrug. I don't feel entitled to worship. Neither should you. Many people appreciate the time and effort you have spent. Some will express it, some won't.

You'll get a lot of ungrateful bastards demanding things from you no matter what. You can chastise them, you can ignore them. Either way, the result is exactly the same.

IMO, if you are being helpful because you want gratitude in return, you'll always be disappointed. If you are helpful because you find it intellectually stimulating, then it doesn't matter how people respond.

Me, I like to explain things because it invariably leads me to a better understanding of the material. Those people who REFUSE to ever try to explain something will never have that experience. Their loss, not mine Smiley
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prj
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« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2012, 12:59:57 PM »

IMO, if you are being helpful because you want gratitude in return, you'll always be disappointed. If you are helpful because you find it intellectually stimulating, then it doesn't matter how people respond.
I never expect anything in return. I try to give more than I take and that's good enough for me.
I do expect people to be polite when they are asking about something.

As for TEMIN always remember, this is BEFORE injector offset gets applied.

The data sheet value just states minimum pulsewidth. It does not say minimum pulsewidth PLUS offset.
Food for thought.

For the EV14 550cc injector, it says 0.7 minimum on the data sheet. With a lag time of about 0.8 at 14V this is 1.5ms actual injector duration.
On the injector bench, I was able to go down a LOT lower than 1.5ms at 14V and you could see the injectors were flowing fine, although more and more linearity error came in.
But nonetheless, they did not began to act up or anything.

So from what I have seen on the bench, and from what I see in the data sheet, the 0.7ms either refers to absolute time, or it refers to a minimum time until the injectors are still linear.
But TEMIN is something completely different, as said before. So setting TEMIN to that value makes no sense whatsoever, as the injector will still be perfectly fine delivering a measurable amount of fuel repeatedly at 0.5ms and below TE. And if correction is needed it can be corrected via FKKVS.

As I said before, TEMIN for me is the minimum effective injection time where the amount of fuel injected is still deterministic.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 01:05:35 PM by prj » Logged

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nyet
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« Reply #125 on: December 11, 2012, 01:09:19 PM »

So a reasonable start would be to set TEMIN to ((min actual injector on time according to inj spec) minus (the shortest TVUB))?
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prj
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« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2012, 01:15:25 PM »

I would say injector specs are not the be-all end-all.
Especially on custom modified injectors.

I think on EV14's you can quite safely set TEMIN to 0 with no ill effects, as injector cutoff will be reached even on 1000cc injectors before this becomes a problem.
Make no mistake, I am not saying this is the right thing to do. I just think TEMIN is irrelevant on smaller EV14 injectors on these cars, as the value is small enough to not really cause a problem.

The only right way to find the value though is to observe the injectors on a bench and do a series of tests.
And of course this value will also depend on the rail pressure...

Truth be told, I am not sure what the "minimum pulsewidth" value specifies on the injector spec and whether it includes the offset or not.
But I know from personal testing on a bench, that the 0.7ms can not be the minimum effective injection time value for the 550cc injectors... as they are deterministic far below that.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 01:18:55 PM by prj » Logged

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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2012, 01:57:39 PM »

with the car coolant temperature around 80-grad C, this is what the start-up looks like logged @ 10Hz.  you can see very clearly that there are moments while the RPM's are low, that one could *functionally* attempt below .70ms.  during regular idle 60# ev14's are circa 1.80ms with 850rpm idle.  my car has TEMIN set to .28ms and TEMINVA to .00ms.  so i agree, in general these don't matter much.  but to say they don't matter is not correct.  furthermore, for some huge injector guys, especially E85 setups, this *absolutely* must matter...  thus we are very much still on topic here.  my evidence here should prove prj's point though, fwiw regarding approaching functional lower bounds of "pulse-width utilized".  i'm pretty sure this is why car stumbles upon start-up sometimes.  once the tvub trims were close to idle LTFT zero, however, the repeated hard-start and stumbling basically went away.
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rnagy86
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« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2012, 02:10:59 PM »

with the car coolant temperature around 80-grad C, this is what the start-up looks like logged @ 10Hz.  you can see very clearly that there are moments while the RPM's are low, that one could *functionally* attempt below .70ms.  during regular idle 60# ev14's are circa 1.80ms with 850rpm idle.  my car has TEMIN set to .28ms and TEMINVA to .00ms.  so i agree, in general these don't matter much.  but to say they don't matter is not correct.  furthermore, for some huge injector guys, especially E85 setups, this *absolutely* must matter...  thus we are very much still on topic here.  my evidence here should prove prj's point though, fwiw regarding approaching functional lower bounds of "pulse-width utilized".  i'm pretty sure this is why car stumbles upon start-up sometimes.  once the tvub trims were close to idle LTFT zero, however, the repeated hard-start and stumbling basically went away.

Why idle that high?  Wink
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prj
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« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2012, 02:12:33 PM »

Why idle that high?  Wink

What does it have to do with anything? He can idle at 2000 rpm if he wants to, it's not going to change anything about the injector calibration.
Also, idling higher requires lower pulsewidth.
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rnagy86
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« Reply #130 on: December 11, 2012, 02:15:02 PM »

What does it have to do with anything?
Nothing I was just asking, wondered if you gonna jump on it -- Nah just kidding, my jokes are never good  Grin
Here is the same for me at idle after startup and coolant being at around 80degC as well, and starting to drive
at the end of it.


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berTTos
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« Reply #131 on: December 11, 2012, 02:24:13 PM »

Really, well I think someone is misunderstanding the FR, and is about ready to have a cat fight over it.
I am not going to bother to get drawn into such crap. Plain and simple.

Yeah sorry, people are opinionated bastards. If I don't like the way someone is talking to me, I am not going to give them anything.
You should know me better by now than to post crap which amounts to "you don't want to share because you don't know anything".

I think I've contributed plenty to this resource to show otherwise.

i meant no offense.  i genuinely would like pw curve data for the EVs at 4 bar (specifically the Ford Racing version).

i don't know how the Ford Racing injector datasheet made it's way into this discussion but i never refered to it.  it is for a Ford GT or GT500 application at 39.15psi and those values are not valid for any other application.  also - i believe the pw curve of the Ford Racing EVs varies from the Bosch Motorsports version at any fuel pressure so the two cannot be referred to as the same injector.

it has been my experience that the Ford EVs low slope (at 4 bar) output is not proportional to the effective pulsewidth below 1.5ms.  i am sure the Bosch Motorsports injectors are different.  i am very sure that drilled injectors are very different.

my reference to the FR is to page 1,397.  TEMIN reference starting value = 1ms
why the oem calibration is 0.5 (and not zero) - i have no idea.

0.7 TEMIN keeps the pw 1.5 or above for the Ford injectors.  it always works at all temperatures, at idle and at all throttle inputs. 

apologies if i came across the wrong way.  i have found many of your posts very useful and am glad you contribute.

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prj
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« Reply #132 on: December 11, 2012, 02:49:52 PM »

i meant no offense.  i genuinely would like pw curve data for the EVs at 4 bar (specifically the Ford Racing version).
I have tuned both injectors, I have dead time data for them.
I never needed to do anything with the PW curve, because in my application they were linear down to 0.5ms TE and that was good enough for me.
I did not tune this on ME7.
Quote
i don't know how the Ford Racing injector datasheet made it's way into this discussion but i never refered to it.  it is for a Ford GT or GT500 application at 39.15psi and those values are not valid for any other application.  also - i believe the pw curve of the Ford Racing EVs varies from the Bosch Motorsports version at any fuel pressure so the two cannot be referred to as the same injector.
Those 550cc/500cc injectors - there are three types of them with the same part number. Ford Motorsport, Bosch and Bosch Industrial.
Bosch and Bosch industrial flow 500cc. The Ford motorsport flow 550cc. The Bosch code for all of them is exactly the same.

TVUB for both types of injectors is pretty much the same too.

Quote
0.7 TEMIN keeps the pw 1.5 or above for the Ford injectors.  it always works at all temperatures, at idle and at all throttle inputs.
And this is way too high. You will be fine even with 0.3ms TEMIN.

Quote
my reference to the FR is to page 1,397.  TEMIN reference starting value = 1ms
This is nothing to do with the real world. Note, this is an "init" value or default value. There is a difference between a recommended value in the application hints and between the default/init value.
The init value simply means that this is what is set to when Bosch compiles the project and outputs a binary, nothing more, nothing less. Drawing any conclusions from it is incorrect.
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julex
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« Reply #133 on: December 12, 2012, 05:45:16 PM »

0.7 ms on datasheet is without dead time corrections, of course, so is temin.
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hipeka
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« Reply #134 on: December 13, 2012, 09:57:02 AM »

TVUB for both types of injectors is pretty much the same too.

So which numbers are right to that map?
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