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Author Topic: The Volvo ME7 thread:  (Read 926950 times)
prometey1982
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« Reply #1350 on: January 16, 2021, 02:38:22 PM »

Digging in big injectors for Volvo. Funny to know didn't find any FKVA and KVB like in Audi for MPG cluster.
Привет Алексей.
А я нашел KVB. И оно работает))
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prometey1982
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« Reply #1351 on: January 16, 2021, 10:49:20 PM »

The Limiter is in the TCM and is there to prevent Ravigneaux Gearset part of TF80SC from breaking.

It can not handle much more torque than the R Engine Produces with 0,5 Bar in those gears.
It's a bullshit. TF80SC easy handle stock and tune R engine's producing torque even on 1 and 2 gears.
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daniel2345
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« Reply #1352 on: January 17, 2021, 01:15:54 AM »

So what does your logs of S60R or V70R say how much boost they do stock in first and second gear with TF80SC?

How much torque did you measured at wheel in gear one and two when you are on dyno and ecu requests 500 Nm with "tuned" ecu? How much torque was produced with stock tune? Did you notice any spikes?

How long did the TF80SC lastet forcing more than stock torque while driving it on a race track which repeatedly uses gear up and down shifts involving gear one and two? What gearbox oil temperature did you measured on that occasions?

How many different major and minor versions of TF80SC have been used in Volvo Cars from 2004 until today?
What are the differences of TF80SC from 2004 P2X and late 2014 P3X versions?

With how many different Volvos of that age have you worked in which different climate conditions to confirm your observations?

You don't know? You have no logs? You have no measurements? You have never been on dyno? You only drive your non R on your street nearby? No other Volvos?

Ok, then you might rethink who is writing bullshit here Wink
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 01:59:14 AM by daniel2345 » Logged
jahko
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« Reply #1353 on: January 17, 2021, 03:53:53 AM »

I'm doing a 2001 2.4LPT auto, it's 20fwhj.a2l. Have been comparing to the 1xEbvsde files available on here and got tonnes of them transferred across. Struggling for some single values and some axes are incorrect, when I've got TVUB and calibrated my new injectors I'll post a partial map pack for this variant. I've had it boosting 14psi in the first 2 gears and set kickdown as high as it goes to make it less violent when you poke it.
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jahko
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« Reply #1354 on: January 17, 2021, 04:00:34 AM »

Thanks for the quick replies but unfortunately both those scenarios are beyond my levels of knowledge. I was hoping for something simple like yeah just change the vin in the bin lol.

So i did as you said (thedrill) and this is what came up for the R...10ERHJ.A2L...The XC...10ERHJ.A2L...The C70....10EQHJ.A2L
C70 ecu came with a k24 i bought has ARD stickers and that person told me i just have to change the vin to use it which is why i was hoping for something a long the lines of change the vin in the bin  Cheesy  silly me

How did you get on? Have you shared the files?
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prometey1982
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« Reply #1355 on: January 17, 2021, 09:02:35 AM »

Work on console logger and flasher is completed.
There are compiled console tools https://cloud.mail.ru/public/qHDs/RBR5724k3
Source code is available at https://github.com/prometey1982/VolvoTools
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prometey1982
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« Reply #1356 on: January 17, 2021, 09:07:25 AM »

So what does your logs of S60R or V70R say how much boost they do stock in first and second gear with TF80SC?

How much torque did you measured at wheel in gear one and two when you are on dyno and ecu requests 500 Nm with "tuned" ecu? How much torque was produced with stock tune? Did you notice any spikes?

How long did the TF80SC lastet forcing more than stock torque while driving it on a race track which repeatedly uses gear up and down shifts involving gear one and two? What gearbox oil temperature did you measured on that occasions?

How many different major and minor versions of TF80SC have been used in Volvo Cars from 2004 until today?
What are the differences of TF80SC from 2004 P2X and late 2014 P3X versions?

With how many different Volvos of that age have you worked in which different climate conditions to confirm your observations?

You don't know? You have no logs? You have no measurements? You have never been on dyno? You only drive your non R on your street nearby? No other Volvos?

Ok, then you might rethink who is writing bullshit here Wink
I read this topic almost 10 times. And at the latest read I saw that you only hate other people and bring nothing to Volvo tuning.
I have my logs with 0-100 and 1/4 mile runs. I have dyno run.
But you know nothing about tuning. Only hate from you here. You can read my logbook at https://www.drive2.com/r/volvo/xc90/522833722999833255/logbook/ it contains dyno run and much more different info.
If you don't know Russian you are welcome to use Google Translate.
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prometey1982
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« Reply #1357 on: January 17, 2021, 09:12:02 AM »

I'm doing a 2001 2.4LPT auto, it's 20fwhj.a2l. Have been comparing to the 1xEbvsde files available on here and got tonnes of them transferred across. Struggling for some single values and some axes are incorrect, when I've got TVUB and calibrated my new injectors I'll post a partial map pack for this variant. I've had it boosting 14psi in the first 2 gears and set kickdown as high as it goes to make it less violent when you poke it.
The only one way to tune propertly is using dissassembler. It's not difficult to find axes for maps. The sooner you start, the faster you will learn.
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jahko
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« Reply #1358 on: January 17, 2021, 09:25:56 AM »

I'll get to that point, should be scaling injectors but found a load of stuff for overboost.
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WhizzMan
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« Reply #1359 on: January 19, 2021, 04:07:40 AM »

So what does your logs of S60R or V70R say how much boost they do stock in first and second gear with TF80SC?

How much torque did you measured at wheel in gear one and two when you are on dyno and ecu requests 500 Nm with "tuned" ecu? How much torque was produced with stock tune? Did you notice any spikes?

How long did the TF80SC lastet forcing more than stock torque while driving it on a race track which repeatedly uses gear up and down shifts involving gear one and two? What gearbox oil temperature did you measured on that occasions?

How many different major and minor versions of TF80SC have been used in Volvo Cars from 2004 until today?
What are the differences of TF80SC from 2004 P2X and late 2014 P3X versions?

With how many different Volvos of that age have you worked in which different climate conditions to confirm your observations?

You don't know? You have no logs? You have no measurements? You have never been on dyno? You only drive your non R on your street nearby? No other Volvos?

Ok, then you might rethink who is writing bullshit here Wink

Everyone calm down.
There are two reasons why you would want to limit torque in the 1st and 2nd gear. Wear/chance of breakage and the fact that you will only get wheel spin if you apply more torque than the tires will be able to transfer to the road.


The second one is easy to quantify for an end user. Most road tires don't allow for more than about 1G in acceleration/deceleration on the vehicle they are made for and manufacturers tend to choose tires in this range as first fitment. Getting more grip usually means that tires wear crazy fast and the regular customer is not going to be pleased with that. If you happen to have access to, or are a person writing these ECU calibrations, you would know that the purpose for these limiters by the OEMs is said to be to eliminate wheel spin primarily.

The first one is extremely hard to quantify, as Daniel no doubt tries to illustrate. How can you be sure that gear boxes don't shatter up inside? You do a bunch of math based on material science of the materials used in the design of the gear box. You choose the materials that are cheapest to use, but still are "good enough" for normal road use of the gear box. After that, you do a lot of testing, find out when the gears actually break under certain circumstances to make sure your theoretical calculations and design fit the application of the gear box.
There is a safety margin, it is both calculated and proven with testing in how strong these gears are by the time they are bolted to a mass production vehicle.
The fact that your gear box hasn't blown up yet is statistically irrelevant. Manufacturers would like the number of gear boxes that blow up to be 0, but 1 in 100.000 is totally acceptable. 1 in 10 obviously is not.
Until you test over 1000 gear boxes, or go through all the tests that Daniel describes with a dozen gear boxes or so, you should assume that these gears aren't designed to take much more load than the design of the road car calls for.
Volvo is known for putting in serious safety margins in their older designs. in the nineties they were forced to cut costs because of competition and once Ford took over, there was a lot more cost cutting to increase margins (make profit). These gear boxes are clearly commissioned in that era and we all know that there were many revisions to fix problems with reliability and durability.

TL;DR One or a few end users experiences mean nothing compared to the design and research data put in by Aisin and Volvo. Don't expect the box to be capable of handling more than 1G acceleration on stock tires because that would make it too expensive and outside of the scope the box is used for.

In practice, lifting the torque limit by a lot will only be beneficial for acceleration if you use extra sticky tires. Otherwise you will only generate tire smoke and possibly little bits of gear shattered inside your box.
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jahko
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« Reply #1360 on: January 19, 2021, 09:41:53 AM »

Checking out different files, going to try and predict values and fit and map the injectors in a day, or I'm fitting a bootmode switch on the dash and ziptying the MPPS under there too.
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yanga001
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« Reply #1361 on: January 19, 2021, 05:26:52 PM »

Hi everyone,

this might be a really stupid question but how effective would it be to find two identical ECU's for the 99 series and then use some scripting to attempt to identify matches between the two bin files.

My thinking in this is to attempt to find the changes between a 2.3T 99 automatic and 2.3T manual in an attempt to find a very cheap and free way to try and do a conversion. I understand the tuning community is a very hard working bunch and i have played around with disassembler for a few 99 auto bins, and am in the process of trying to locate the 99 manual bin. Ill post results if and when this idea comes to fruition, however i would find any input useful.

So far im working on building a log reader from a scrap ecu header from a 99 so the bin should show up here in the next few months.
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1999 ME7 Volvo S70 2.3 T Auto
daniel2345
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« Reply #1362 on: January 20, 2021, 08:34:48 AM »

Everyone calm down.
There are two reasons why you would want to limit torque in the 1st and 2nd gear. Wear/chance of breakage and the fact that you will only get wheel spin if you apply more torque than the tires will be able to transfer to the road.


The second one is easy to quantify for an end user. Most road tires don't allow for more than about 1G in acceleration/deceleration on the vehicle they are made for and manufacturers tend to choose tires in this range as first fitment. Getting more grip usually means that tires wear crazy fast and the regular customer is not going to be pleased with that. If you happen to have access to, or are a person writing these ECU calibrations, you would know that the purpose for these limiters by the OEMs is said to be to eliminate wheel spin primarily.

The first one is extremely hard to quantify, as Daniel no doubt tries to illustrate. How can you be sure that gear boxes don't shatter up inside? You do a bunch of math based on material science of the materials used in the design of the gear box. You choose the materials that are cheapest to use, but still are "good enough" for normal road use of the gear box. After that, you do a lot of testing, find out when the gears actually break under certain circumstances to make sure your theoretical calculations and design fit the application of the gear box.
There is a safety margin, it is both calculated and proven with testing in how strong these gears are by the time they are bolted to a mass production vehicle.
The fact that your gear box hasn't blown up yet is statistically irrelevant. Manufacturers would like the number of gear boxes that blow up to be 0, but 1 in 100.000 is totally acceptable. 1 in 10 obviously is not.
Until you test over 1000 gear boxes, or go through all the tests that Daniel describes with a dozen gear boxes or so, you should assume that these gears aren't designed to take much more load than the design of the road car calls for.
Volvo is known for putting in serious safety margins in their older designs. in the nineties they were forced to cut costs because of competition and once Ford took over, there was a lot more cost cutting to increase margins (make profit). These gear boxes are clearly commissioned in that era and we all know that there were many revisions to fix problems with reliability and durability.

TL;DR One or a few end users experiences mean nothing compared to the design and research data put in by Aisin and Volvo. Don't expect the box to be capable of handling more than 1G acceleration on stock tires because that would make it too expensive and outside of the scope the box is used for.

In practice, lifting the torque limit by a lot will only be beneficial for acceleration if you use extra sticky tires. Otherwise you will only generate tire smoke and possibly little bits of gear shattered inside your box.


Im relaxed Smiley
Thanks for making things clearer.
It also shows how wide the complexity is in reality.


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daniel2345
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« Reply #1363 on: January 20, 2021, 08:41:32 AM »

Hi everyone,

this might be a really stupid question but how effective would it be to find two identical ECU's for the 99 series and then use some scripting to attempt to identify matches between the two bin files.

My thinking in this is to attempt to find the changes between a 2.3T 99 automatic and 2.3T manual in an attempt to find a very cheap and free way to try and do a conversion. I understand the tuning community is a very hard working bunch and i have played around with disassembler for a few 99 auto bins, and am in the process of trying to locate the 99 manual bin. Ill post results if and when this idea comes to fruition, however i would find any input useful.

So far im working on building a log reader from a scrap ecu header from a 99 so the bin should show up here in the next few months.


The bins are generated as / from a specific software project.
Volvo ME7 uses same project for manual and automatic transmission in almost all projects.

After software is created, calibration is done.
So, the same software with same locations is populated with values for manual transmission on the one side, and with values for automatic transmission on the other side.

You only have to find bins with same software project base, then you can compare them directly.
Each difference is a different calibration for automatic / manual.


Same is done for different engine displacement also.



That shows, that a conversion tool is not needed. You just need to find the correct automatic bin since they exist in 95% of the software projects.

Hint: there are at least 6 software projects which where used in 99/2000, so the search might take a while.
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yanga001
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« Reply #1364 on: January 20, 2021, 10:32:18 AM »


The bins are generated as / from a specific software project.
Volvo ME7 uses same project for manual and automatic transmission in almost all projects.

After software is created, calibration is done.
So, the same software with same locations is populated with values for manual transmission on the one side, and with values for automatic transmission on the other side.

You only have to find bins with same software project base, then you can compare them directly.
Each difference is a different calibration for automatic / manual.


Same is done for different engine displacement also.



That shows, that a conversion tool is not needed. You just need to find the correct automatic bin since they exist in 95% of the software projects.

Hint: there are at least 6 software projects which where used in 99/2000, so the search might take a while.

Awesome thanks for the info. I was unsure how they did it, and where the compiler made the differences based on optimizations and what not. I have a few contacts in the volvo community so i might see if they would be willing to capture their bins or if i can find some local ones who would be willing to share. As it stands right now, i have a 99 T5 i am slowly restoring, and i have a 2000 M56 waiting for a swap. the 99's use a different bin size i believe, but i have not actually disassembled a 2000 bin yet.

Ill see if i can convince a few contacts to copy and share their bins for some 99 2.3T's. I assume even if the auto and manual bins do not match my software project, i can still co-locate the changes via finding the auto's matches to my bin and then swapping the corresponding manual calibrations.

I am new to the tuning scene and appreciate the patience you guys have.
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1999 ME7 Volvo S70 2.3 T Auto
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