Pages: 1 ... 164 165 [166] 167 168 ... 182
Author Topic: The Volvo ME7 thread:  (Read 1086434 times)
s60rawr
Full Member
***

Karma: +19/-1088
Offline Offline

Posts: 170



« Reply #2475 on: January 02, 2024, 09:42:38 AM »

05+ final update ( facelift and newer )
only seem to be US bins, how like QKHJ is US 2007 update for the pre facelift 04
he can try these, it is a US bin so he'd have to use an EU ESKONF and hopefully thats it just to test the BTS in the logs.
GPHJ lines up with it well, most of the addresses are close, i made a small pack for it.

enjoy
« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 11:45:49 AM by s60rawr » Logged


There is a free flash suite in progres

-Karma Sponge
prometey1982
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +70/-60
Online Online

Posts: 323



WWW
« Reply #2476 on: January 02, 2024, 10:21:04 AM »

For US we got a final update 50GSHJ 05+ manual 05 auto which runs really good.
Works on 06-07 tf80 cars but no cruise control in 6th gear so we still use the wra72 wrhj variant for those.
Cross flashed many, never any issues

You need to set GAFGRO (max. permitted gear during active cruise control) from 5 to 6. But anyway 50GPHJ works poor with TF80. Maybe 50GSHJ works but I didn't check it.
Logged

Россия - Великая страна!
https://youtu.be/fup5GzIFdXk
s60rawr
Full Member
***

Karma: +19/-1088
Offline Offline

Posts: 170



« Reply #2477 on: January 02, 2024, 10:27:24 AM »

You need to set GAFGRO (max. permitted gear during active cruise control) from 5 to 6. But anyway 50GPHJ works poor with TF80. Maybe 50GSHJ works but I didn't check it.

I tested a GPHJ auto bin on a tf80 and it ran great, just no cc in 6th.  this was before i had proper wrhj wra72 logging parm
thank you tho!
Logged


There is a free flash suite in progres

-Karma Sponge
prometey1982
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +70/-60
Online Online

Posts: 323



WWW
« Reply #2478 on: January 07, 2024, 03:56:56 AM »

One guy who have some posts here published the video with rolling antilag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymK3depr6c&t=1s

I want to implement such functionality but don't fully understand how it works. Possible implementation can be:
1. If cruise is disabled and cruise + button is pressed more that N seconds then
2. Save current speed to the variable
3. Push pedal to the metal and control current speed to saved by ignition angle retarding.
4. If it not enough then we can drop torque by cylinders injection disabling.
5. When cruise+ button is released then we disable previous mechanics.
Logged

Россия - Великая страна!
https://youtu.be/fup5GzIFdXk
keichi
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


« Reply #2479 on: January 07, 2024, 04:50:43 AM »

One guy who have some posts here published the video with rolling antilag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymK3depr6c&t=1s

I want to implement such functionality but don't fully understand how it works. Possible implementation can be:
1. If cruise is disabled and cruise + button is pressed more that N seconds then
2. Save current speed to the variable
3. Push pedal to the metal and control current speed to saved by ignition angle retarding.
4. If it not enough then we can drop torque by cylinders injection disabling.
5. When cruise+ button is released then we disable previous mechanics.

On video you posted there is actually no rolling anti-lag (just NLS) Smiley
But here is anti-lag and nls shown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tWZVR7kp8I

It's done more od less the way you described.

Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-483
Offline Offline

Posts: 6040


« Reply #2480 on: January 07, 2024, 06:46:58 AM »

One guy who have some posts here published the video with rolling antilag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YymK3depr6c&t=1s

I want to implement such functionality but don't fully understand how it works. Possible implementation can be:
1. If cruise is disabled and cruise + button is pressed more that N seconds then
2. Save current speed to the variable
3. Push pedal to the metal and control current speed to saved by ignition angle retarding.
4. If it not enough then we can drop torque by cylinders injection disabling.
5. When cruise+ button is released then we disable previous mechanics.

1. On trigger save current rpm.
2. Have a 3d map with latest safe ignition (to not create egt problem)
3. Have another map that sets redsol based on RPM delta.

If a lot of EGT issues set NMAX temporarily to current saved RPM, so it closes throttle a little too.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
prometey1982
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +70/-60
Online Online

Posts: 323



WWW
« Reply #2481 on: January 07, 2024, 07:51:15 AM »

1. On trigger save current rpm.
2. Have a 3d map with latest safe ignition (to not create egt problem)
3. Have another map that sets redsol based on RPM delta.

If a lot of EGT issues set NMAX temporarily to current saved RPM, so it closes throttle a little too.
There will be a problem with automatic transmission. Because on full throttle gearbox will switch to lower possible gear. So I prefer to save speed not rpm.
Logged

Россия - Великая страна!
https://youtu.be/fup5GzIFdXk
keichi
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


« Reply #2482 on: January 07, 2024, 08:39:32 AM »

1. On trigger save current rpm.
2. Have a 3d map with latest safe ignition (to not create egt problem)
3. Have another map that sets redsol based on RPM delta.

If a lot of EGT issues set NMAX temporarily to current saved RPM, so it closes throttle a little too.

EGT with retarded ignition means something else then EGT at normal ignition.
The more advanced ignition the more heat is absorbed by cylinder walls, pistons and valves and less is dumped into exhaust.
When retarding ignition a lot of heat is dumped directly into exhaust and EGT probe sees more heat.

But if injection is disabled on some cylinders (with redsol) total amount of heat generated by combustion is less then normal
So I would not be worried too much about high EGT during anti-lag.

Of course although anti-lag produces less heat then normal this heat go to parts of the engine that it is not supposed to - to exhaust valves, manifold and turbine and cause a lot of stress on those.
But there is nothing that can be done about that. They just have to bear it Smiley

EGT can be misleading also when it goes down Smiley
When i tune cars, i start from "safe" ignition that give huge EGT then advance ignition and EGT go down.
But it doesn't mean engine is cooler but just less heat reach EGT probe and at the same time our pistons and cylinders are more heat stressed Smiley
« Last Edit: January 07, 2024, 08:57:46 AM by keichi » Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-483
Offline Offline

Posts: 6040


« Reply #2483 on: January 12, 2024, 02:33:42 PM »

There will be a problem with automatic transmission. Because on full throttle gearbox will switch to lower possible gear. So I prefer to save speed not rpm.
Then you can use speed, yes.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-483
Offline Offline

Posts: 6040


« Reply #2484 on: January 12, 2024, 02:36:23 PM »

But if injection is disabled on some cylinders (with redsol) total amount of heat generated by combustion is less then normal
So I would not be worried too much about high EGT during anti-lag.
Keyword IF. If you don't do any cutting at all you will quickly melt shit. If you don't apply a proper rotating pattern, you will melt shit etc.

Quote
When i tune cars, i start from "safe" ignition that give huge EGT then advance ignition and EGT go down.
But it doesn't mean engine is cooler but just less heat reach EGT probe and at the same time our pistons and cylinders are more heat stressed Smiley
I think you need to go back to school and re-learn the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
Of course it means that the combustion chamber is cooler. This might be the most stupid thing I've read on here in a long time.

The same amount of fuel burned produces the same amount of energy. It gets converted to kinetic energy that pushes the piston and to heat.
Ignition angle in an ICE is the efficiency of conversion to kinetic energy. Given the same charge in the cylinder less efficient combustion directly heats the combustion chamber.
Everything that is in the combustion chamber gets hotter, and also the exhaust gas gets hotter. The exhaust gas does not magically teleport to the EGT probe, it exits the combustion chamber. What you see on the runner or at the turbo is already at way lower temperatures than what is in the combustion chamber.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 02:42:26 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
keichi
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


« Reply #2485 on: January 12, 2024, 03:42:39 PM »

Keyword IF. If you don't do any cutting at all you will quickly melt shit. If you don't apply a proper rotating pattern, you will melt shit etc.
I think you need to go back to school and re-learn the first and second laws of thermodynamics.
Of course it means that the combustion chamber is cooler. This might be the most stupid thing I've read on here in a long time.

The same amount of fuel burned produces the same amount of energy. It gets converted to kinetic energy that pushes the piston and to heat.
Ignition angle in an ICE is the efficiency of conversion to kinetic energy. Given the same charge in the cylinder less efficient combustion directly heats the combustion chamber.
Everything that is in the combustion chamber gets hotter, and also the exhaust gas gets hotter. The exhaust gas does not magically teleport to the EGT probe, it exits the combustion chamber. What you see on the runner or at the turbo is already at way lower temperatures than what is in the combustion chamber.

Well maybe master's degree at combustion engines theory is not enough (yeah i'v done such studies, very interesting and useless knowledge Smiley there is so little demand for combustion engines theorists that they closed this specialisation at my university few years later - just one guy found job in this specialization, he is designing diesel truck engines for one of big companies Smiley

But regarding engines and combustion Smiley i belive you are confusing concepts, no offense Smiley
There is no conversion of burned fuel into kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is related to velocity not thermal transformation.
Burning fuel is only needed to raise temperature of air in the combustion chamber.
When air in the combustion chamber get hotter according to 2nd rule of thermodynamic then pressure rises.
This pressure then push the piston.
Combustion is actually irrelevant for making power. There are external combustion piston engines like Stirling engine. All that matters is to heat up the medium (air) to rise the pressure.
There are even piston engines that do not need to heat up medium at all - they just use external source of pressure (pneumatic engines) that push pistons.

In internal combustion piston engine we burn fuel to heat up medium and rise pressure.
The earlier we ignite mixture the more time heat will have to penetrate pistons, cylinders and head. More of this heat will be absorbed by the engine.
If we retard ignition heat will have less time to be absorbed by the engine and more of it will be thrown out of the exhaust - that's wy EGT goes up when we retard ignition.


Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-483
Offline Offline

Posts: 6040


« Reply #2486 on: January 12, 2024, 03:53:56 PM »

In internal combustion piston engine we burn fuel to heat up medium and rise pressure.
The earlier we ignite mixture the more time heat will have to penetrate pistons, cylinders and head. More of this heat will be absorbed by the engine.
If we retard ignition heat will have less time to be absorbed by the engine and more of it will be thrown out of the exhaust - that's wy EGT goes up when we retard ignition.
The more energy is spent pushing the piston, the less waste heat there is. First law of thermodynamics, such a difficult concept to grasp, I know.
Earlier timing causes higher PCP and more work extracted from the same amount of charge. It also causes a much shorter and faster burn. The time is important.

The charge is constant, you're not magically adding or removing energy by moving the ignition point.
You are simply controlling the amount that gets converted into motion and the amount exhausted as heat.

I really can't tell anymore if the problem is that your English is just bad or that you have some fundamental issues with concepts.
Quote
The earlier we ignite mixture the more time heat will have to penetrate pistons, cylinders and head. More of this heat will be absorbed by the engine.
In case this was true, then the lowest heat would be "absorbed" at ATDC ignition. Yet this will quickly melt the pistons and valves.
So no, in the context of heat transfer, there is much more total heat transferred to the combustion chamber, especially at the exhaust portion with retarded ignition.

Quote
There is no conversion of burned fuel into kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is related to velocity not thermal transformation.
Burning fuel is only needed to raise temperature of air in the combustion chamber.
When air in the combustion chamber get hotter according to 2nd rule of thermodynamic then pressure rises.
This pressure then push the piston.
Again, first law of thermodynamics. In the end, kinetic energy is extracted from oxidizing the fuel...
The fact that there is not a direct transformation is irrelevant. Yes, there is an adiabatic process in between, so what?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 04:11:23 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
keichi
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


« Reply #2487 on: January 12, 2024, 06:28:32 PM »

The more energy is spent pushing the piston, the less waste heat there is. First law of thermodynamics, such a difficult concept to grasp, I know.
Earlier timing causes higher PCP and more work extracted from the same amount of charge. It also causes a much shorter and faster burn. The time is important.

The charge is constant, you're not magically adding or removing energy by moving the ignition point.
You are simply controlling the amount that gets converted into motion and the amount exhausted as heat.

I really can't tell anymore if the problem is that your English is just bad or that you have some fundamental issues with concepts.In case this was true, then the lowest heat would be "absorbed" at ATDC ignition. Yet this will quickly melt the pistons and valves.
So no, in the context of heat transfer, there is much more total heat transferred to the combustion chamber, especially at the exhaust portion with retarded ignition.
Again, first law of thermodynamics. In the end, kinetic energy is extracted from oxidizing the fuel...
The fact that there is not a direct transformation is irrelevant. Yes, there is an adiabatic process in between, so what?

Compression and then decompression of burning mixture is irrelevant.
Of course when we compress air it warms up and then cools down on decompression but sum of energy is zero.
It's not heat that does work (push piston) but pressure.
Heat is just there to produce pressure.

Peak combustion temperature reach 2200C and average is around 1500C (gasoline).
This is how hot burning gasoline gets.

It doesn't matter if you ignite mixture earlier or later. It burns at around 2200C.

The longer heat stays inside cylinder the more is absorbed by the engine (pistons, cylinders, valves) so they are more heat stressed.
Its that simple Smiley

The more heat absorbed by the pistons and cylinders the less is left to be thrown out thru exhaust.

That's why you advance ignition and "magically" EGT goes down.
And when you retard ignition EGT "dangerously" goes up.

Bute there is the same amount of heat produced as long as the same amount of mixture is burned.
So what EGT sees is not relevant to heat inside engine.

Well given the same conditions like the same ignition, AFR, rpm and amount of air EGT is relevant to heat inside engine but when you change one condition like ignition angle you change EGT but actual amount of heat is the same.

For example, imagine we stop engine on the combustion cycle with mixture compressed inside and we ignite it.
It will burn and go out. What will happen with heat? All of it will stay inside cylinder. After a while engine block will absorb all of it - simply speaking we just heat up our engine a little.
Now imagine we have multiple burns one after another. and engine rotating. It will still heat up engine but this time some of it will also be ejected thru exhaust.
And now depending on how long mixture will stay burning inside (ignition angle) the more will go into heating engine block (pistons, cylinders) and less will be thrown out of the engine thru exhaust.

Another thing. If you cruise slowly on low rpm mixture still burns at 2200C (gasoline doesn't know your car goes much slower and have to burn with half of its normal temperature:) But your EGT will be like half of what is on full power. Why? Because flame stays a lot longer inside engine and more of it's heat is absorbed by the engine then is thrown away comparing to full power scenario. Of course thermal stress is also way lower because we burn much less amount of mixture.

I can't put it more simply Smiley I hope my english is not that bad either Smiley

« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 07:09:43 PM by keichi » Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-483
Offline Offline

Posts: 6040


« Reply #2488 on: January 12, 2024, 06:40:30 PM »

The longer heat stays inside cylinder the more is absorbed by the engine (pistons, cylinders, valves) so they are more heat stressed.
"Absorb" is really not the correct word here. I'd use the word heat transfer and not engine, but rather individual engine parts.
Also, I strongly disagree about EGT not being important. Exceed a certain EGT and you will melt the head/piston, every time.
You can hold the engine in steady state with the same charge and mix, and simply retard the ignition until catastrophic failure occurs.
According to your logic this is impossible.

I don't understand your problem with the first law of thermodynamics.
The more kinetic energy is extracted out of the charge, the less waste thermal energy is left over, very simple.

Compression and decompression absolutely matters and what happens to the gas, at what time, and at what rate.
It is the difference between melting something and not, because materials have heat transfer coefficients, and the location in the chamber where heat transfer occurs and during what time plays a very important role.

If your exhaust is very hot, then you're constantly heating the area near the exhaust valves until it melts.
On other hand, if you have e.g. preignition/glow ignition, then you will melt the piston near the spark plug without hearing a peep.

Timing is everything (pun intended).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 07:16:59 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
keichi
Full Member
***

Karma: +10/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 73


« Reply #2489 on: January 13, 2024, 04:37:29 AM »

"Absorb" is really not the correct word here. I'd use the word heat transfer and not engine, but rather individual engine parts.
Also, I strongly disagree about EGT not being important. Exceed a certain EGT and you will melt the head/piston, every time.
Yeah sorry for my english, heat transfer soundes better Smiley
But EGT probe in the exhaust measure temperature... in the exhaust Smiley Not in the cylinder Smiley
As i said you can have more heat inside cylinder and less outside and other way around Smiley

You can hold the engine in steady state with the same charge and mix, and simply retard the ignition until catastrophic failure occurs.
According to your logic this is impossible.
I was taught other way around Smiley
Retarding ignition cools cylinder.

Combustion heat balance looks more or less like this:
1. 30% - is lost with exhaust
2. 30% - is lost into cylinder (heats up engine parts)
3. 30% - is what actually heats up air producing pressure

Heat 1. is exhaust stress.
Heat 2. is engine internals stress (pistons, cylinders, valves)

The more you retard ignition the more heat goes into 1. and less into 2.
So you simply cools cylinder Smiley But at the same time you heat up exhaust parts Smiley
For example - launching ALS - you see massive EGT rise but you also cool down cylinders - but you do not see this because you do not have temp. sensor inside cylinder.

Fun fact - we had test engine in the lab with temperature and pressure sensors installed and they were very accurate and even more expensive Smiley
No one cared about EGT temperature in the lab Smiley What was important was temperature inside cylinder (and pressure).

But because we do not have NASA like equipment available for our cars so we put primitive cheap EGT probes inside exhaust that do not tell us much about what is going inside engine but that is all we have Smiley
It's like watching distant galaxies with telescope - we can't go there personally and measure anything directly so we just observe it from far away and make assumptions what is going on there Smiley

The more kinetic energy is extracted out of the charge, the less waste thermal energy is left over, very simple.
And again "kinetic" energy is related to speed when body with certain mass is moving.
There is no kinetic energy extraction from combustion Smiley
Burning mixture has no kinetic energy and does not do any work. It just heats up medium (itself).
As i said there are engines that have external heat source like Stirling engine.
Stirling engine has no intake or exhaust, medium is closed inside.
You heat it up externally by heating cylinder walls!
And it works like ICE engine - all that matters is pressure - how you get pressure is irrelevant.
And as for thermal waste i wrote about it above.

If your exhaust is very hot, then you're constantly heating the area near the exhaust valves until it melts.
On other hand, if you have e.g. preignition/glow ignition, then you will melt the piston near the spark plug without hearing a peep.
Preignition or detonation is another topic.
Mixture ignited normally (with spark plug) burns quite slow at constant rate - so that why you advance ignition with engine speed.
But when too much heat or pressure it can self detonate and it causes more heat and more pressure and more self ignition occurs.
Then pressure inside cylinder goes crazy (jumps violently all the way around) and combustion is disrupted.
For example if you put too "hot" plugs they do not transfer enough heat off the plug itself to the head so they get too hot and start working like glow plugs in diesels pre-igniting mixture.

btw. this discussion made me refresh some knowledge from studies that i started to forgot:)

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 04:54:57 AM by keichi » Logged
Pages: 1 ... 164 165 [166] 167 168 ... 182
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.033 seconds with 17 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0s, 0q)