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Author Topic: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA  (Read 1458 times)
fluke9
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2019, 10:13:12 AM »

Sure about that? My understanding is that it should interpolate between two rows instead of using one or the other?
Yes it interpolates, but look at your last two rows...
Having two values for the interpolation for the whole boost range sucks,
this is where you want to finetune, so more loadpoints mean that you can tune more exactly where it matters.

And yes, in THEORY the whole engine could run of two rows but you will loose a lot of power which can be found in
the non linear characteristic of an engine. There are so many influences which dont make work linear, thats why you have a KFZW.

A distributor based care is actually exactly that, a fixed ignition curve with the aid of a mass which advances the ignition due to centrifugal forces
if the distributor turns faster, so it does not know anything about load (well some do, they later added a vacuum hose).
But such a system is always a compromise.


« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 10:19:20 AM by fluke9 » Logged
GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2019, 06:42:09 PM »

I think the info. in this thread will be useful for VR6 owners converting from NA to turbo. I would mention that the later R32 and similar engines use the ME 7.1.1 ECUs which can be more difficult to work with especially the ST10 based ECUs. In DSG situations requested torque can also be an issue. The OE compression ratio is 10:8-11:1 depending on what data you believe for the 2004-2009 3.2L VR6 engines. For power of 375 HP and higher most VW/Audi tuners recommend a cyl. head spacer or lower compression pistons. Billet rods are also recommended above ~ 400 HP. The OE pistons are Mahle cast and they should be replaced with forged pistons for high HP application reliability. Mahle Motorsport U.S. and other's offer these forged pistons with a lower compression ratio.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 07:32:15 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
larppaxyz
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2019, 01:25:49 AM »

I would mention that the later R32 and similar engines use the ME 7.1.1 ECUs which can be more difficult to work with especially the ST10 based ECUs. In DSG situations requested torque can also be an issue.

True, it's actually ME 7.1.1 in my car and far as i can remember, it's with ST10 chip. Anyway, like you said, some cars may have ME 7.1.1 but different chip and that makes it harder to flash, bootmode and other stuff might be involved.

DSG cars have torque limiting coming from transmission also, that is what i have been told too. So that is good info to mention here.
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larppaxyz
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2019, 12:34:19 PM »

Ok, i did some measurements about ignition timing, because of discussion in this thread that stock timing will kill your engine.

With current setup and stock ignition timing, when flooring it (30-110km/h) i don't see any real dips on timing. At full throttle on maximum boost (around 0.65bar) advance is around 14-21 degrees at 5000rpm all the way to redline where it drops to single digits (torque limiting maybe). How is that possible? It kinda matches to primary ignition maps A and B...

So, after that. I made changes that at full load, ignition timing should be around 9-15 degrees at 5000 rpm... did really see any change on data, it's still the same.

Is Torque app logging something like "requested ignition timing" that has nothing to do with actual timing? I don't see any knocking on timing curves.... or feel it or hear it.

Example row from data
Timing Advance Deg : 19.5
Air flow g/s : 268.5
RPM : 5064
... while heavily accelerating.

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GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2019, 06:46:43 PM »

I can't answer your questions but it is true that timing for the OE NA engine configuration would normally cause engine damage at WOT and possibly major spark knock under part throttle boost. If you are running E85 you might be getting away with it if the ambient temps are cool Huh

It's also not unusual to have the total ignition timing "flat line" after 5000 RPM in a production engine because you want the least amount of timing that produces the highest torque. More timing than the minimum required for maximum torque can actually lower power even if the engine does not knock.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 06:54:14 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2019, 06:49:00 PM »

depends on fuel as well

underscaling load is a bad idea for a lot of different reasons. knock recognition is one of dozens.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
fluke9
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2019, 01:36:23 AM »

underscaling load is a bad idea for a lot of different reasons. knock recognition is one of dozens.

Underscaling load is a crude hack which will work.
Almost as crude as moving the Crankwheel sensor to retard ignition (which will work too).

Depends on what you really want, if its just a car for fun where you dont care about a jerky part throttle,
other hickups, problems starting it when its cold with E50 and more then hack away IMHO.

The first supercharger iteration on my old GTV was a Diode in the MAF sensor line with a forward voltage about 0.5v to underscale so ignition is retarded and fuel was on a megasquirt.
Worked quite well to be honest, from stock 230hp to 345hp on the dyno with no knock. A giant hack.

With ETBs and stuff things get more complicated if you want nice driveability, but you could always change some CW so the throttle plate follows the pedal,
which will create a few other issues like idling etc... But if you are hacking anyway you could retrofit an idle adjustment screw ;-)



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woj
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2019, 03:19:12 AM »

I was restraining myself from saying this, but somehow cannot. I appreciate the effort of OP and all to write his experiences down, and it is very nice to see that people are not afraid to experiment.

But attempts like this give others the false belief that it is possible to do (well, that one is true), easy to do, cheap to do, or done properly. Many will follow this half baked solution and at the end of the line the global conclusion is going to be that such conversions are unreliable etc. and several will break their engines. I have seen this happening on another scene ages ago, and when folks finally came with the right solutions, these were doubted under the assumption that they are the same crap as the first bodges. 

At the very least put a huge and red disclaimer at the beginning stating this is incomplete and risky Wink
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GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2019, 06:44:13 PM »

I was restraining myself from saying this, but somehow cannot. I appreciate the effort of OP and all to write his experiences down, and it is very nice to see that people are not afraid to experiment.

But attempts like this give others the false belief that it is possible to do (well, that one is true), easy to do, cheap to do, or done properly. Many will follow this half baked solution and at the end of the line the global conclusion is going to be that such conversions are unreliable etc. and several will break their engines. I have seen this happening on another scene ages ago, and when folks finally came with the right solutions, these were doubted under the assumption that they are the same crap as the first bodges.  

At the very least put a huge and red disclaimer at the beginning stating this is incomplete and risky Wink

I personally would like to go from an NA R32 to a turbo R32 but I don't desire to use the hacked ECU approach to do it. I understand that it is possible to do an OK conversion with custom coding, etc. of the OE NA ECU but knowing this is a Band-Aid approach at best, I prefer to go with a PnP aftermarket ECU that allows proper use of a MAP sensor and calibration of all aspects without having to live with a hacked ECU. Hopefully the better aftermarket PnP engine management systems will be cost effective enough for enthusiasts who desire to have their turbo VR6 or similar run as well as an OE turbo vehicle. The aftermarket ECU will still require proper calibration for this to happen including the correct injector data, MAF data, MBT, AFR, etc., etc. This is no small job to do properly.

I believe this thread by the OP was meant to explain his challenges, experiences and difficulties trying to make this complex conversion. It's not like recalibrating an NA or turbo engine, it's a complete re-engineering of the ECU with a lot of forced compromises that are not desirable for a daily driver. If it's a project car and you're OK with less than ideal driving characteristics, then it may be a challenge and learning experience but it's unlikely to ever be a refined, proper driving vehicle as we are use to now days from the auto makers. And yes there is the very real possibility of engine damage even if you do understand the convoluted, complex torque based ECU strategy employed by VW.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 07:01:29 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
prj
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2019, 09:48:39 AM »

It's no problem to tune this properly by those who know how to do it. There's a few sw patches involved, and then after that it's just calibration changes, but it just takes a lot of time.

On this forum you can count these people most likely on the fingers of one hand... oh and no one works for free.
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GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2019, 06:11:26 PM »

It's no problem to tune this properly by those who know how to do it. There's a few sw patches involved, and then after that it's just calibration changes, but it just takes a lot of time.

On this forum you can count these people most likely on the fingers of one hand... oh and no one works for free.

I understand a few can hack the NA ECU to run OK but even with the software patches it's still a hack and not the same as using a proper ECU with all of the appropriate functions, strategy and inputs such as a MAP sensor designed for a forced induction system. It's unfortunate the OE ECU doesn't have the proper strategy and maps to make this an easy, proper conversion for enthusiasts looking to run FI.
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prj
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2019, 10:16:38 AM »

I understand a few can hack the NA ECU to run OK but even with the software patches it's still a hack and not the same as using a proper ECU with all of the appropriate functions, strategy and inputs such as a MAP sensor designed for a forced induction system. It's unfortunate the OE ECU doesn't have the proper strategy and maps to make this an easy, proper conversion for enthusiasts looking to run FI.

You don't know what you're on about, just throwing out buzzwords without having a clue of how things work.

You can absolutely run the R32 with a MAP sensor instead of the MAF on the stock ECU. You can have full lambda control. You can have good throttle control. You can have boost control.
On a daily car it will still drive a LOT better than any standalone ECU, because those just don't have the functions for refinement that the factory ECU has and gives you for free.
If you think this is easy, no it's not. If you're a guy in a garage, forget OE ECU tuning, you don't have the capability to ever get that right anyway, especially on more complicated projects.

But if it's a car that is just needed for motorsport, and the setup changes all the time, then it's a much better idea to fit the tool to do the job. A standalone.

Also, the OE ECU has all the strategies required, if you are the vendor. Set SY_TURBO = 1, set SY_DSS = 1, recompile. BOOM.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:19:36 AM by prj » Logged
larppaxyz
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2019, 10:25:02 AM »

I personally would like to go from an NA R32 to a turbo R32 but I don't desire to use the hacked ECU approach to do it. -- snip--

I believe this thread by the OP was meant to explain his challenges, experiences and difficulties trying to make this complex conversion. It's not like recalibrating an NA or turbo engine, it's a complete re-engineering of the ECU with a lot of forced compromises that are not desirable for a daily driver. If it's a project car and you're OK with less than ideal driving characteristics, then it may be a challenge and learning experience but it's unlikely to ever be a refined, proper driving vehicle as we are use to now days from the auto makers. And yes there is the very real possibility of engine damage even if you do understand the convoluted, complex torque based ECU strategy employed by VW.

Exactly this. These were my biggest challenges when starting this project with absolutely zero experience of turbo cars, never even owned one. Never touched ECU software before, no welding skills, anything really. I didn't want to hear if people think it is wise or dangerous. I simply wanted to learn myself.

After 6 months now, i have Cayenne that actually looks completely stock outside and even engine looks stock for untrained eye. Car has much more power and is still nice everyday driver that "normal" person driving would not even notice there are some modifications. It's still a hack, because car has no idea about boost, it won't ever be perfect without heavy code changes. This was (still is, fixing up those ignition tables right now!) a journey for me and part of that progress was to destroy single piston Smiley

If someone has VR6 to FI, go for it. How it turns out, might surprise you. I think modern sensor technology makes it easier than ever. Years ago when you had no protection for your mistakes, it could get much more costly.

Hope this makes you smile : https://youtu.be/v9gLChxtMaE?t=482 ... first test drive.. nothing worked right Smiley





« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:32:07 AM by larppaxyz » Logged
GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2019, 07:12:52 PM »

You don't know what you're on about, just throwing out buzzwords without having a clue of how things work.

You can absolutely run the R32 with a MAP sensor instead of the MAF on the stock ECU. You can have full lambda control. You can have good throttle control. You can have boost control.
On a daily car it will still drive a LOT better than any standalone ECU, because those just don't have the functions for refinement that the factory ECU has and gives you for free.
If you think this is easy, no it's not. If you're a guy in a garage, forget OE ECU tuning, you don't have the capability to ever get that right anyway, especially on more complicated projects.

But if it's a car that is just needed for motorsport, and the setup changes all the time, then it's a much better idea to fit the tool to do the job. A standalone.

Also, the OE ECU has all the strategies required, if you are the vendor. Set SY_TURBO = 1, set SY_DSS = 1, recompile. BOOM.

Well actually I do know a thing or two about how things work. The point is that there are better means to convert an NA engine to FI than hacking the NA ECU. I understand that you probably do this for a living and generate revenue from same and that's fine and dandy but the average enthusiasts isn't likely to be able to do the re-engineering of the NA ECU to make a FI engine run 100% properly. In fact many so called tuners who do this for a living are unable to make the VR6 run properly like the OE engine after it's converted to FI. If you're able to do everything properly, that's great. In the 20+ years that I have owned VR6 powered vehicles I have never heard of or seen any VR6 turbo engine using a MAP sensor which is the preferred method for monitoring cylinder density. Enabling SY_Turbo and SY_DSS isn't the challenge. Wink

There are in fact aftermarket engine management systems that can duplicate the performance of the OE Bosch or similar ECUs without going to the extremes that some auto makers do. You can even buy Bosch aftermarket systems for an absurd price that offer most everything the OE ECU offers. OE systems 20 years ago were not torque based and they ran just fine same as current torque based systems. Some aftermarket systems employ a combination of MAF, MAP and torque based strategies to obtain the best performance for both street or motorsports situations. Some of the aftermarket systems also incorporate options for wet or dry NOS operation, water-injection, dual fuel injectors and other controls not available on the OE Bosch ECU. The aftermarket has made great gains in engine management over the past decade and the better systems are no longer the crude ECUs of the past. You pay for this advancement but it's an option that is finally available for those looking to do their own proper tuning. It's still a lot of work to do it all properly however and this point should not be underestimated.

I think between this thread and the one below VR6 owners and others looking to convert an NA engine to FI will be able to see the challenges, pitfalls, limitations and options that exist should they decide to pursue a project of this magnitude. None of the options are for the faint of heart other than buying a tune and hoping it works.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=17016.0title=
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 11:34:51 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
GolfSportWagen
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2019, 07:24:22 PM »

Exactly this. These were my biggest challenges when starting this project with absolutely zero experience of turbo cars, never even owned one. Never touched ECU software before, no welding skills, anything really. I didn't want to hear if people think it is wise or dangerous. I simply wanted to learn myself.

After 6 months now, i have Cayenne that actually looks completely stock outside and even engine looks stock for untrained eye. Car has much more power and is still nice everyday driver that "normal" person driving would not even notice there are some modifications. It's still a hack, because car has no idea about boost, it won't ever be perfect without heavy code changes. This was (still is, fixing up those ignition tables right now!) a journey for me and part of that progress was to destroy single piston Smiley

If someone has VR6 to FI, go for it. How it turns out, might surprise you. I think modern sensor technology makes it easier than ever. Years ago when you had no protection for your mistakes, it could get much more costly.



Hope this makes you smile : https://youtu.be/v9gLChxtMaE?t=482 ... first test drive.. nothing worked right Smiley





Hey it runs so you're making progress! If you intend to up the boost however it is likely to become more complicated.  Wink
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 07:26:07 PM by GolfSportWagen » Logged
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