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Author Topic: The Volvo ME7 thread:  (Read 1972239 times)
keichi
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« Reply #2475 on: January 12, 2024, 06:28:32 PM »

The more energy is spent pushing the piston, the less waste heat there is. First law of thermodynamics, such a difficult concept to grasp, I know.
Earlier timing causes higher PCP and more work extracted from the same amount of charge. It also causes a much shorter and faster burn. The time is important.

The charge is constant, you're not magically adding or removing energy by moving the ignition point.
You are simply controlling the amount that gets converted into motion and the amount exhausted as heat.

I really can't tell anymore if the problem is that your English is just bad or that you have some fundamental issues with concepts.In case this was true, then the lowest heat would be "absorbed" at ATDC ignition. Yet this will quickly melt the pistons and valves.
So no, in the context of heat transfer, there is much more total heat transferred to the combustion chamber, especially at the exhaust portion with retarded ignition.
Again, first law of thermodynamics. In the end, kinetic energy is extracted from oxidizing the fuel...
The fact that there is not a direct transformation is irrelevant. Yes, there is an adiabatic process in between, so what?

Compression and then decompression of burning mixture is irrelevant.
Of course when we compress air it warms up and then cools down on decompression but sum of energy is zero.
It's not heat that does work (push piston) but pressure.
Heat is just there to produce pressure.

Peak combustion temperature reach 2200C and average is around 1500C (gasoline).
This is how hot burning gasoline gets.

It doesn't matter if you ignite mixture earlier or later. It burns at around 2200C.

The longer heat stays inside cylinder the more is absorbed by the engine (pistons, cylinders, valves) so they are more heat stressed.
Its that simple Smiley

The more heat absorbed by the pistons and cylinders the less is left to be thrown out thru exhaust.

That's why you advance ignition and "magically" EGT goes down.
And when you retard ignition EGT "dangerously" goes up.

Bute there is the same amount of heat produced as long as the same amount of mixture is burned.
So what EGT sees is not relevant to heat inside engine.

Well given the same conditions like the same ignition, AFR, rpm and amount of air EGT is relevant to heat inside engine but when you change one condition like ignition angle you change EGT but actual amount of heat is the same.

For example, imagine we stop engine on the combustion cycle with mixture compressed inside and we ignite it.
It will burn and go out. What will happen with heat? All of it will stay inside cylinder. After a while engine block will absorb all of it - simply speaking we just heat up our engine a little.
Now imagine we have multiple burns one after another. and engine rotating. It will still heat up engine but this time some of it will also be ejected thru exhaust.
And now depending on how long mixture will stay burning inside (ignition angle) the more will go into heating engine block (pistons, cylinders) and less will be thrown out of the engine thru exhaust.

Another thing. If you cruise slowly on low rpm mixture still burns at 2200C (gasoline doesn't know your car goes much slower and have to burn with half of its normal temperature:) But your EGT will be like half of what is on full power. Why? Because flame stays a lot longer inside engine and more of it's heat is absorbed by the engine then is thrown away comparing to full power scenario. Of course thermal stress is also way lower because we burn much less amount of mixture.

I can't put it more simply Smiley I hope my english is not that bad either Smiley

« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 07:09:43 PM by keichi » Logged
prj
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« Reply #2476 on: January 12, 2024, 06:40:30 PM »

The longer heat stays inside cylinder the more is absorbed by the engine (pistons, cylinders, valves) so they are more heat stressed.
"Absorb" is really not the correct word here. I'd use the word heat transfer and not engine, but rather individual engine parts.
Also, I strongly disagree about EGT not being important. Exceed a certain EGT and you will melt the head/piston, every time.
You can hold the engine in steady state with the same charge and mix, and simply retard the ignition until catastrophic failure occurs.
According to your logic this is impossible.

I don't understand your problem with the first law of thermodynamics.
The more kinetic energy is extracted out of the charge, the less waste thermal energy is left over, very simple.

Compression and decompression absolutely matters and what happens to the gas, at what time, and at what rate.
It is the difference between melting something and not, because materials have heat transfer coefficients, and the location in the chamber where heat transfer occurs and during what time plays a very important role.

If your exhaust is very hot, then you're constantly heating the area near the exhaust valves until it melts.
On other hand, if you have e.g. preignition/glow ignition, then you will melt the piston near the spark plug without hearing a peep.

Timing is everything (pun intended).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 07:16:59 PM by prj » Logged

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keichi
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« Reply #2477 on: January 13, 2024, 04:37:29 AM »

"Absorb" is really not the correct word here. I'd use the word heat transfer and not engine, but rather individual engine parts.
Also, I strongly disagree about EGT not being important. Exceed a certain EGT and you will melt the head/piston, every time.
Yeah sorry for my english, heat transfer soundes better Smiley
But EGT probe in the exhaust measure temperature... in the exhaust Smiley Not in the cylinder Smiley
As i said you can have more heat inside cylinder and less outside and other way around Smiley

You can hold the engine in steady state with the same charge and mix, and simply retard the ignition until catastrophic failure occurs.
According to your logic this is impossible.
I was taught other way around Smiley
Retarding ignition cools cylinder.

Combustion heat balance looks more or less like this:
1. 30% - is lost with exhaust
2. 30% - is lost into cylinder (heats up engine parts)
3. 30% - is what actually heats up air producing pressure

Heat 1. is exhaust stress.
Heat 2. is engine internals stress (pistons, cylinders, valves)

The more you retard ignition the more heat goes into 1. and less into 2.
So you simply cools cylinder Smiley But at the same time you heat up exhaust parts Smiley
For example - launching ALS - you see massive EGT rise but you also cool down cylinders - but you do not see this because you do not have temp. sensor inside cylinder.

Fun fact - we had test engine in the lab with temperature and pressure sensors installed and they were very accurate and even more expensive Smiley
No one cared about EGT temperature in the lab Smiley What was important was temperature inside cylinder (and pressure).

But because we do not have NASA like equipment available for our cars so we put primitive cheap EGT probes inside exhaust that do not tell us much about what is going inside engine but that is all we have Smiley
It's like watching distant galaxies with telescope - we can't go there personally and measure anything directly so we just observe it from far away and make assumptions what is going on there Smiley

The more kinetic energy is extracted out of the charge, the less waste thermal energy is left over, very simple.
And again "kinetic" energy is related to speed when body with certain mass is moving.
There is no kinetic energy extraction from combustion Smiley
Burning mixture has no kinetic energy and does not do any work. It just heats up medium (itself).
As i said there are engines that have external heat source like Stirling engine.
Stirling engine has no intake or exhaust, medium is closed inside.
You heat it up externally by heating cylinder walls!
And it works like ICE engine - all that matters is pressure - how you get pressure is irrelevant.
And as for thermal waste i wrote about it above.

If your exhaust is very hot, then you're constantly heating the area near the exhaust valves until it melts.
On other hand, if you have e.g. preignition/glow ignition, then you will melt the piston near the spark plug without hearing a peep.
Preignition or detonation is another topic.
Mixture ignited normally (with spark plug) burns quite slow at constant rate - so that why you advance ignition with engine speed.
But when too much heat or pressure it can self detonate and it causes more heat and more pressure and more self ignition occurs.
Then pressure inside cylinder goes crazy (jumps violently all the way around) and combustion is disrupted.
For example if you put too "hot" plugs they do not transfer enough heat off the plug itself to the head so they get too hot and start working like glow plugs in diesels pre-igniting mixture.

btw. this discussion made me refresh some knowledge from studies that i started to forgot:)

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 04:54:57 AM by keichi » Logged
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« Reply #2478 on: January 13, 2024, 04:40:09 AM »

I hope my english is not that bad either Smiley
Пиши по-русски. Дмитрий его знает.
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prj
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« Reply #2479 on: January 13, 2024, 05:06:57 AM »

So you simply cools cylinder Smiley But at the same time you heat up exhaust parts Smiley
Exhaust valves and exhaust ports are also "exhaust parts".
Retard ignition in steady state and you focus so much heat on this area that you melt it or drop a valve resulting in engine failure.
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keichi
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« Reply #2480 on: January 13, 2024, 05:15:59 AM »

Exhaust valves and exhaust ports are also "exhaust parts".
Retard ignition in steady state and you focus so much heat on this area that you melt it or drop a valve resulting in engine failure.
Exactly, we have to choose if we prefer to melt pistons or exhaust valves Wink
Fortunately we can cool cylinders dumping extra fuel inside.

Fun fact: lean mixture is cooler then rich mixture Smiley
But extra fuel evaporation have greater cooling effect then richer mixture raised heat.
It even do not have to be fuel. We can dump anything that will vaporize,like water - its like human skin producing sweat to vaporize to cool it down.
Engine can not produce sweat on its own so we must deliver it Smiley

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 05:23:51 AM by keichi » Logged
prj
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« Reply #2481 on: January 13, 2024, 05:24:01 AM »

Fun fact: lean mixture is cooler then rich mixture Smiley
This statement is incorrect on it's own.
Combustion temperature decreases in both directions of stoichiometric. The hottest burn is at stoichiometric ratio.
Rich mixture in case of liquid fuel has also the advantage of evaporative cooling...

Also in the real world you will almost never melt anything but the exhaust portion of the combustion chamber in case of normal combustion.
So minimizing EGT is a very good tuning strategy. The whole heat transfer to the large surface area of the piston and engine block is almost irrelevant for the end user in a well designed engine.
It is the hotspot near the exhaust valve with high EGT's that creates heat related failures.

And of course all kind of irregular combustion, such as detonation, preignition and so on.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 05:28:11 AM by prj » Logged

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keichi
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« Reply #2482 on: January 13, 2024, 06:13:42 AM »

Yeah maybe i used wrong words. Lambda 1,0 is the hottest. Then towards leaner it get cooler and toward richer albo cooler.
But leaner gets cooler because combustion produces less heat.
And richer gets cooler because of evaporation (combustion alone is still hotter but yeah it is irrelevant).

As for melting things, you can easily melt piston also Smiley

I think we agree to the most parts, but maybe use other words to present our point of view Smiley

But as for EGT i still think that in most cases this measure is overrated or even misleading.
Specially when there is single EGT probe somewhere further in the exhaust.
Only case i see to be useful is having separate sensors on all cylinders.
Then at least you can catch a cylinder in which the combustion process differs from the rest that means some trouble.
But who does that? Most people put single EGT in some random place that shows weather Smiley
Or they want ALS so much because its so "cool" (pun intended Wink and they panic when EGT goes crazy above 1100C or more when they fire up ALS Smiley
Then they can't understand that it is heat "outside" engine Smiley And they want ALS that will be cooler but still "cool" Wink

And if i am already offtopic, one more regarding conflicting expectations.
I tuned client's car from stock 250HP to 360HP. Then he was surprised that his fuel economy went down a lot Smiley
He can't understand why did this happens Smiley He though that fuel economy will even improve after that power increase Smiley
I don't know from where people get this kind of assumptions but its similar to EGT readings and assumptions - less does not mean better Smiley

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 06:36:09 AM by keichi » Logged
prj
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« Reply #2483 on: January 13, 2024, 06:47:40 AM »

As for melting things, you can easily melt piston also Smiley
In well designed factory engine almost impossible to melt piston unless pushing well over double power output.
The only ways are abnormal combustion and also creating an extremely intense hotspot near the exhaust valve by having very late timing.

Quote
But as for EGT i still think that in most cases this measure is overrated or even misleading.
Specially when there is single EGT probe somewhere further in the exhaust.
Only case i see to be useful is having separate sensors on all cylinders.
Then at least you can catch a cylinder in which the combustion process differs from the rest that means some trouble.
But who does that? Most people put single EGT in some random place that shows weather Smiley
This is true. Especially if probe is after turbo, it says absolutely nothing. Only useful for protecting catalytic converter.

Quote
Or they want ALS so much because its so "cool" (pun intended Wink and they panic when EGT goes crazy above 1100C or more when they fire up ALS Smiley
Then they can't understand that it is heat "outside" engine Smiley And they want ALS that will be cooler but still "cool" Wink
Most turbochargers are rated between 950C-1050C TIP continuous. Running 1100C+ EGT with ALS will destroy the turbo.
You will also probably damage the exhaust valves because depending on timing it is possible mixture is still burning when exhaust valve opens.
There is absolutely no need for such EGT though. You can have easily ~900C EGT with turbo producing meaningful boost.

Quote
I tuned client's car from stock 250HP to 360HP. Then he was surprised that his fuel economy went down a lot Smiley
Unless CR was dropped then fuel economy should not change except when actually using the extra power.

Quote
I don't know from where people get this kind of assumptions but its similar to EGT readings and assumptions - less does not mean better Smiley
In case of production engines in 99% cases less EGT = better.
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Dannyhaddon
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« Reply #2484 on: January 26, 2024, 10:14:34 AM »

Does anyone have a kthj log parameter file?
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turbosundance
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« Reply #2485 on: February 06, 2024, 02:47:08 PM »

Forgive me if this is a stupid question. I've been following this thread for years and I want to thank everyone for their effort. I've just discovered openmoose and I'm currently reading my bin file from my 2005 xc70.  I want to do some logging but where do I find or got to I create an XML parameter file?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 02:59:00 PM by turbosundance » Logged

2005 Volvo XC70  Stock.  550,000+km and climbing daily.
turbosundance
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« Reply #2486 on: February 06, 2024, 03:01:06 PM »

Here's my bin from my car that I just read.  2005 xc70 auto Canada
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turbosundance
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« Reply #2487 on: February 06, 2024, 05:45:45 PM »

05+ final update ( facelift and newer )
only seem to be US bins, how like QKHJ is US 2007 update for the pre facelift 04
he can try these, it is a US bin so he'd have to use an EU ESKONF and hopefully thats it just to test the BTS in the logs.
GPHJ lines up with it well, most of the addresses are close, i made a small pack for it.

enjoy

How do I tell what code my ecu file is?  I'm hoping my 05 xc70 is GSHJ.  I guess I can try this xdf with my bin file in tunerpro
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Dannyhaddon
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« Reply #2488 on: February 07, 2024, 03:40:15 AM »

Yours is gshj
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turbosundance
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« Reply #2489 on: February 07, 2024, 11:30:50 AM »

That appears to be the case. Thank you for the response!

First thing I'm going to do is change my bin file for blue injectors.  Time to learn!

If anyone has any tips on what changes to make for a 16t I'd appreciate it.  That's what I'm going to work on after getting blue injectors working.
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